As an outsider looking in....

[McCarthy12]

You think it is possible that his exposure to Islam of some sort, perverted as it may have been, played no role in this? He just got mad because he saw dudes kissing in Miami? I don't know about that. At the very least, Islam gave his mentally ill mind the impetus to carry the ball over the goal line.

[TerpEagle]

We didn't bomb the shit out of Germany, we didn't drop a nuclear weapon and decimate half a country???

How many Germans and Japanese descendants do you see shooting up Gay clubs?

And we occupied both of those countries and helped them establish new societies that interacted with the rest of the world.

1980's - Arm the mujaheddin and then leave after they kill some Ruskies, allowing the Taliban to enter the power vacuum and radicalize Afghanistan.

1990's - Attack Iraq, bomb them intermittently.

2000's - Invade Iraq under false pretenses, leave the country a total mess and allow ISIS to enter the power vacuum and radicalize Iraq and Syria.

The nations in the Middle East has been pawns for proxy wars and control of resources. They've been bombed and left of clean up the mess which inevitably has been done by radicals.

Your analogy is terrible.

[Sect 236]

I didn't mean that they didn't help put him over the goal line, that I can agree with.

My point was, I don't want to give these fuckers credit for this, thus building their lore and potentially pushing more crazies to cross the goal line, if this guy was just a solo psycho and they didn't have an active hand in it.

[art vandelay]

i agree with this. the most recent shooting can't be compared to something like sandy hook, imo.

however, i still think we have to do something about gun violence in our country. it doesn't really matter that there is a black market for guns which would theoretically supply anyone who wanted to kill people. our current policy isn't working. we need to change it. it may not eliminate the problem, but it certainly wouldn't result in more deaths. it could only help.

[TerpEagle]

You think it is possible that his exposure to Islam of some sort, perverted as it may have been, played no role in this? He just got mad because he saw dudes kissing in Miami? I don't know about that. At the very least, Islam gave his mentally ill mind the impetus to carry the ball over the goal line.

There were clearly a lot of things wrong with this guy. Saying that the problem is that he was exposed to radical religious ideas is the primary problem and not crazy guy's access to weapons is ridiculous.

If someone bombs an abortion clinic or drags a kid through a fence because he's gay - can we demonize Christianity and its teachings for being the impetus for these assholes to carry the ball of the goal line?

[Eagle Road]

[QUOTE=TerpEagle;1857959]And we occupied both of those countries and helped them establish new societies that interacted with the rest of the world.




Yep, I agree on several counts, but what I bolded was the difference, the ME doesn't want to be part of the rest of the world, period.

[Birdwatcher]

I agree to a point...but

BW, to me, a lot of this has to do with people/society in general not really being happy, choose a side if you want, but this economy sucks, and has for years, most people have NO savings, most people are underpaid or under employed, half of this population is on Gov. assistance of some kind, so much middle class wealth down the tubes.

I just don't think a large percentage of people can see a light at the end of the tunnel any more, we as a country are not the happy place we used to be.

Our economy, at least in the fifty years or so I have been watching, has always been a mess. It started in the Nixon era with the oil madness of the seventies and became an all out assault on the middle class with the notion of 'trickle down' economics. Eisenhower, the last decent GOP president, said we taxed corporations at ninety percent to force them to reinvest their profits rather than pay excessive taxes. After Reaganomics took hold the big corporations started pocketing profits and look what the fuck happened! We are also 'unhappy' because we want all the shiny new toys that are advertised ad nauseum, the relentless pursuit of STUFF (as Carlin called it) helps fuel the discontent. BTW, apart from the 1950's, when exactly was this country a 'happy place.' Not to mention, in the 50's only white were the happy ones, women and minorities were treated like property. My daughters don't even realize that the credit cards they carry now were unattainable for a single woman in the sixties, and married ones only could get them with their husband's permission.

[TerpEagle]

[QUOTE=Eagle Road;1857963]

And we occupied both of those countries and helped them establish new societies that interacted with the rest of the world.




Yep, I agree on several counts, but what I bolded was the difference, the ME doesn't want to be part of the rest of the world, period.

The Middle East has been treated as a resource caches for years. And whenever the West was gotten involved, it's simply taken and then left it in ruins. That's a recipe for disaster - as we can see.

[TerpEagle]

Yes, I did. And it is. By trying to lump ISIS in with all of the other mass shooters and act like we'll somehow eradicate them if we tighten up gun laws, you conflate the issues.

What's the common thread between mass shooters?

There are always multiple issues to a problem like this. There are always going to be crazy people. I'd like the source of the crazy to be addressed, but limiting the ease with which crazy people can murder others seems to be important.

[McCarthy12]

Sure, when significant percentages of Christians, Jews, Buddhists or Hindus begin using their faith to advocate the slaughter of people that disagree with them and actively pursue their goals through murder (genocide in the case of Middle Eastern Christians) I'd be happy to have a conversation about the role of "religion" in terrorism and mass shootings.

For now though, there is only one religion that fits that bill.

[Eagle Road]

Our economy, at least in the fifty years or so I have been watching, has always been a mess. It started in the Nixon era with the oil madness of the seventies and became an all out assault on the middle class with the notion of 'trickle down' economics. Eisenhower, the last decent GOP president, said we taxed corporations at ninety percent to force them to reinvest their profits rather than pay excessive taxes. After Reaganomics took hold the big corporations started pocketing profits and look what the fuck happened! We are also 'unhappy' because we want all the shiny new toys that are advertised ad nauseum, the relentless pursuit of STUFF (as Carlin called it) helps fuel the discontent. BTW, apart from the 1950's, when exactly was this country a 'happy place.' Not to mention, in the 50's only white were the happy ones, women and minorities were treated like property. My daughters don't even realize that the credit cards they carry now were unattainable for a single woman in the sixties, and married ones only could get them with their husband's permission.

I thought the early 60's were Camelot? I thought the late 60's were Hippie's and love and peace for everyone? Eisenhower, you mean that guy from KANSAS, never heard of him, lol

You are right about, "happy for who" I admit to having a bias outlook, as I have always been a white male? I have no idea what it would be like to be a female or another skin color other than what I was born as.

[McCarthy12]

Yes, there are always multiple issues to every problem. Sometimes there are multiple problems, too. Gun violence, generically, is a problem. Islamic terrorism is a separate problem. Islamic terrorism contributes to gun violence, but I would never argue that we don't have a larger, distinct gun violence issue in this country. Similarly, access to guns certainly contributes to terrorist attacks, however, you have to acknowledge that Islamic terrorism is much more complex than simply blaming loose gun laws. That's all I'm saying.

[1960]

Was Dylann Roof part of the cult of death? Was Adam Lanza? Was James Eagan Holmes? Was Seung-Hui Cho? Were Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold?

There are 3 major aspects to the shooting in Orlando.

1) An natural born American citizen and nut-job that used religious extremism to justify his actions.
2) Targeting of a community that is treated as less than equal by a large portion of this country.
3) Someone who had been investigated by the FBI, has mental health issues, has a history of domestic violence, has a history of unstable activity, and has a history of spouting hateful rhetoric towards specific groups of people having easy access to firearms.

Why should we only be talking about the 1st item on that list? These are all serious issues and simply blaming this massacre on the evil other doesn't come close to helping to solve them.

And, fyi, more than the actual massacre, ISIS wants us to react this way towards Muslims and Islam. It's much easier to recruit when there is a clear enemy that sees you as the "other" rather than a society of inclusion.

Did any of the people you cited use religion as the reason they killed people? It is our country's treatment of gays after 20 years of groundbreaking acceptance that is responsible for this and not the preaching in Orlando and the pictures of ISIS throwing them off roof tops?
I am also so sick of people saying any reaction to this is a recruiting tool, so look the other way and let it keep happening.

[Birdwatcher]

Hell...it isn't just oil

[QUOTE=TerpEagle;1857968]

The Middle East has been treated as a resource caches for years. And whenever the West was gotten involved, it's simply taken and then left it in ruins. That's a recipe for disaster - as we can see.

The middle east has been in the cross hairs of dispute since the time of the Crusades, and then the colonization by European nations, and just recently the advent of oil reserves. The Arabs have a thousand years of history to point to for their hatred of the west, but again, hatred is the key. Violence, in any form, begets more violence. Cut off a head from the Hydra of hatred and two pop up to fill the gap, just keep on hating and our civilizations will eventually collapse. I do believe that is what JC tried to point out two thousand years ago, yet those that carry the 'christian' banner hate and persecute, rather than live and let live. Christianity was born on the premise of passive resistance, love thy enemy and diffuse the hatred, the only way to win. When Christians picked up the sword and took political control, men subverted the message and they still do.

[TerpEagle]

Sure, when significant percentages of Christians, Jews, Buddhists or Hindus begin using their faith to advocate the slaughter of people that disagree with them and actively pursue their goals through murder (genocide in the case of Middle Eastern Christians) I'd be happy to have a conversation about the role of "religion" in terrorism and mass shootings.

For now though, there is only one religion that fits that bill.

Wow.