Dumbass Greeks

[Eagle Road]

Here's a good article about what is going on in Europe right now.

Not sure if the posted link will work if you are not a WSJ subscriber.

You might have to go to news.google.com and search "Germany's power polarizes Europe"

http://www.wsj.com/articles/germanys...ope-1436231408

I'm not a subscriber but let me guess, let's put all the blame for our troubles on someone else, even thou we DID prosper, (highest GDP was under the Euro) and our leadership fumbled the ball and we all voted for higher pensions, more vacation days, shorter work weeks and earlier retirement, even thou there was no way in hell we could afford it?


Not saying that they don't have some legitimate bitches, but they also had legitimate choices.


It would not surprise me one bit if they tried to cut a deal for a reduced loan amount and then turned to BRICS to float them a loan to pay it off.


Believe me, if oil hadn't fallen and Russia wasn't propping up their own economy and spending whatever extra they have upgrading their military they would step in just to have full access to Greece's ports, it would play right into their Naval expansion plans.

[IronEagle]

I'm not a subscriber but let me guess, let's put all the blame for our troubles on someone else, even thou we DID prosper, (highest GDP was under the Euro) and our leadership fumbled the ball and we all voted for higher pensions, more vacation days, shorter work weeks and earlier retirement, even thou there was no way in hell we could afford it?

First off I disagree that high unemployment is the result of people not wanting to work. You seem to think it's because people are lazy. I think it's more due to a lack of economic opportunity.

And in the case of the Greece situation right now, I think the lack of opportunity there is because it's that Germany is strangling their economy to extract every last drop of blood out of them.

IMO, basically this is like a loan shark situation right now.

Kinda like when Christopher in the Sopranos loaned Dolan money to go in over his head in a poker game and later beat him up to to get him to pay.

Oh yeah, and everything Birdwatcher said about the Germans not repaying their debts in the 50's is true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London...External_Debts

[Eagle Road]

First off I disagree that high unemployment is the result of people not wanting to work. I think it's more due to a lack of economic opportunity.

And in the case of the Greece situation right now, I think the lack of opportunity there is because it's that Germany is strangling their economy to extract every last drop of blood out of them.

IMO, basically this is like a loan shark situation right now.

Kinda like when Christopher in the Sopranos loaned Dolan money to go in over his head in a poker game and later beat him up to to get him to pay.

Oh yeah, and everything Birdwatcher said about the Germans not repaying their debts in the 50's is true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London...External_Debts

I actually agree with you that what is happening like a loan shark deal, (good analogy with the Sopranos BTW, miss the hell outta that show) all I am saying is that no one twisted their arm to put them into this situation, they voted on it and they agreed to the deal.


But again, I understand that a whole country can be run aground by an inept Gov, in this case I think there is enough blame to go around.


As far as Germany putting the screws to them, yeah, they are, but be honest, owe 267 Billion, and can't make a 1.5 billion dollar payment, IF you were their creditor, would you let them off?

[Drama Queen]

How hard is it to sell souvlaki at the Plaka?! Quit making excuses for them!

[Birdwatcher]

Thanks IE

First off I disagree that high unemployment is the result of people not wanting to work. You seem to think it's because people are lazy. I think it's more due to a lack of economic opportunity.

And in the case of the Greece situation right now, I think the lack of opportunity there is because it's that Germany is strangling their economy to extract every last drop of blood out of them.

IMO, basically this is like a loan shark situation right now.

Kinda like when Christopher in the Sopranos loaned Dolan money to go in over his head in a poker game and later beat him up to to get him to pay.

Oh yeah, and everything Birdwatcher said about the Germans not repaying their debts in the 50's is true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London...External_Debts

I choose to present facts, not speculation about an entire nation's disposition or political affiliations. People get caught up in rhetoric and beliefs that skew the real truth. Greece has a population of 11 million, with 3-7 million more living outside of Greece. Most left because, other than tourism, the country has little else to drive its economy. Plenty of corruption in government, like everywhere fucking else, certainly made things worse. Very few Greeks in Greece live extravagant lives, they generally live at a level we would consider very low middle class here. I know, I have been there and seen it for myself. All this Marxist/Socialist crap is not a large part of Greek society. Most are religious, pious people who live meager lives, and they are the ones being hurt by this. You can say they elected their government, but whoever they chose was as corrupt as the other choice. It sucks when your vote only determines the method with which you will be screwed.

[Eagle Road]

I choose to present facts, not speculation about an entire nation's disposition or political affiliations. People get caught up in rhetoric and beliefs that skew the real truth. Greece has a population of 11 million, with 3-7 million more living outside of Greece. Most left because, other than tourism, the country has little else to drive its economy. Plenty of corruption in government, like everywhere fucking else, certainly made things worse. Very few Greeks in Greece live extravagant lives, they generally live at a level we would consider very low middle class here. I know, I have been there and seen it for myself. All this Marxist/Socialist crap is not a large part of Greek society. Most are religious, pious people who live meager lives, and they are the ones being hurt by this. You can say they elected their government, but whoever they chose was as corrupt as the other choice. It sucks when your vote only determines the method with which you will be screwed.

If you are aiming this at my comments, everything I said WAS fact, first off, I never called anyone lazy, or a Socialist, or a Marxist, and that fact you can plainly read in the comments I posted.


So let's take them one by one, Greek Retirement age, avg. age is UNDER 58 years old, and their pension is OVER 80% of their income, in other words a worker making 1100 gets a pension of almost 900 dollars (adjusted figures from Euro to Dollar based) and this article is from The Greek Reporter,


The average retirement age in Greece stands at just 57 years and eight months, quoting a survey conducted by the Hellenic Statistical Authority (ELSTAT). The survey used a sample from the quarterly work force report from the April-June 2012 period for people aged between 50 and 69 years, and reached some very interesting conclusions. The average age of retirement for men is 58 years, while for women it is a few months earlier. Less than one in three (28.3%) of the respondents said that obligatory retirement was the main reason for their exiting the labor market. Almost six out of 10 had secured the right to retire, while a 5.7% share of workers stated that they had exited the market due to health problems. It also appears that the age of retirement is affected by education level, due to its connection to work and the social security system. It was found that those who have only obtained an elementary education (primary school leavers) are more likely to retire later, at the average age of 59 years and three months. In contrast, the more educated a worker is, the earlier they retire, with the average age of retirement for university graduates standing at 56 years and four months. (source: ANSA) - See more at: http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013....hEWQ2Vc2.dpuf





As far as shorter work week and more vacation days, you are correct the Greeks DO work longer hours than most of the EU, the EU countries average 41.6 and the Greeks are at 42.2, which is pretty much a wash, I was comparing what they work to the middle class here which most work much more than 40 hrs per week.




The average working week for full-time employees only in the EU is 41.6 hours. Ireland’s full-time workers have an average week of 39.7 working hours. Germany’s full-time employees do work harder than the EU average, with a 42-hour working week. But Greece’s average full-time working weeks is 43.7 hours – again, the highest average in the 27 EU states.
Average usual hours worked by all in employment, and full-time workers, April to June 2011, in the EU states:
Greece – All in employment: 42.2 Full-time employment only: 43.7
Czech Republic – All in employment: 41.2 Full-time employment only: 42.3
Bulgaria – All in employment: 40.9 Full-time employment only: 41.3
Poland – All in employment: 40.6 Full-time employment only: 42.2
Slovakia – All in employment: 40.5 Full-time employment only: 41.5
Romania – All in employment: 40.5 Full-time employment only: 41.0
Cyprus – All in employment: 40 Full-time employment only: 42.1
Slovenia – All in employment:39.6 Full-time employment only: 41.8
Hungary – All in employment: 39.4 Full-time employment only: 40.6
Latvia – All in employment: 39.2 Full-time employment only: 40.8
Portugal – All in employment: 39.1 Full-time employment only: 42.3
Malta – All in employment: 38.8 Full-time employment only: 41.4
Estonia – All in employment: 38.6 Full-time employment only: 40.8
Spain – All in employment: 38.4 Full-time employment only: 41.6
Lithuania – All in employment: 38.3 Full-time employment only: 39.7
France – All in employment: 38 Full-time employment only: 41.1
Austria – All in employment: 37.8 Full-time employment only: 43.7
Italy – All in employment: 37.6 Full-time employment only: 40.5
Finland – All in employment: 37.4 Full-time employment only: 40.3
Luxembourg – All in employment: 37 Full-time employment only: 40.5
Belgium – All in employment: 36.9 Full-time employment only: 41.7
Sweden – All in employment: 36.5 Full-time employment only: 40.9
UK – All in employment: 36.3 Full-time employment only: 42.7
Germany – All in employment: 35.6 Full-time employment only: 42.0
Ireland – All in employment: 35.0 Full-time employment only: 39.7
Denmark – All in employment: 33.8 Full-time employment only: 39.1
Netherlands – All in employment: 30.5 Full-time employment only: 40.9




As to IE comment on there are many unemployed because there is no Employment Opportunities, this I do agree with, and again, I place that blame on the Gov. for not bringing jobs into that country.


I never said they were LAZY, what I said was there were a large number of the working force either Unemployed, or Employed under the table so no taxes being paid or collected.


This is from one of the most Left sided publication you can find, The Marxist. This backs up EXACTLY what I was saying about Black Market jobs/labor.




Furthermore, according to the annual report of the joint GSEE-ADEDY trade union confederations on the economy and employment levels in 2009, of the current four and a half million labour force, more than a million work without any social security or other forms of legal protection. According to the report of the Commission for Social Security, established by the Greek Ministry of Labour, this figure reaches 30% of the overall workforce, while in the rest of the EU the percentage of workers in these conditions are only between 5 and 10% of the total.
And whose fault is that? Contributions are supposed to be calculated by the bosses, who pay a part themselves and the remainder is paid by the workers out of their wages. But that would mean declaring the workers legally and paying taxes on the profits made. The bosses prefer to hire a sizeable number of workers illegally, in the “black economy”, and thus save on both taxes due to the state and contributions. If the bosses had paid all taxes due in recent years, and if they had paid what they are supposed to pay into social security funds, the situation would not be anywhere as bad as it is today. It is the Greek capitalists and the foreign investors who have profited from this situation. But who are they blaming? The Greek workers and poor, of course!
On top of all this, in Greece there is also the phenomenon of around 300,000 “false self-employed workers”. These are workers who have in reality been forced to set themselves up as self-employed. In reality they work for a boss who can freely assign the manner, the time, the place of work, and the working conditions and thus this form of working is essentially employment by a boss, but with the added advantage that he can sack them whenever he wants, as formally he is the workers’ “client”. Bosses prefer this method of employment because these workers are not treated legally as employees; they don’t have the same legal rights as the rest of the working class, such as monthly salaries, paid holidays, etc. Employers can fire them freely, even without any compensation. We must also add to the list the 200,000 “part-time” employees, most of whom work full-time but are being paid half-time.
In the smear campaign, there have been many reports concerning the supposedly “excessive” number of civil servants in Greece. According to reports of the ILO (International Labour Organization), civil servants in Greece represent 22.3% of the total workforce, while in France the percentage is 30%, in Sweden 34%, in the Netherlands 27%, in the UK 20% and finally, in Germany 14%. So we can see that Greece is actually below the average. The most important fact, however, that has to be borne in mind is that 300,000 of the public sector employees are working under temporary contracts, which means they have far lower wages and much fewer rights.






Also BW, I will total agree with you on this comment you made, it's EXACTLY how I feel about this country!


You can say they elected their government, but whoever they chose was as corrupt as the other choice. It sucks when your vote only determines the method with which you will be screwed.

[Dim Bulb]

ding ding ding

I choose to present facts, not speculation about an entire nation's disposition or political affiliations. People get caught up in rhetoric and beliefs that skew the real truth. Greece has a population of 11 million, with 3-7 million more living outside of Greece. Most left because, other than tourism, the country has little else to drive its economy. Plenty of corruption in government, like everywhere fucking else, certainly made things worse. Very few Greeks in Greece live extravagant lives, they generally live at a level we would consider very low middle class here. I know, I have been there and seen it for myself. All this Marxist/Socialist crap is not a large part of Greek society. Most are religious, pious people who live meager lives, and they are the ones being hurt by this. You can say they elected their government, but whoever they chose was as corrupt as the other choice. It sucks when your vote only determines the method with which you will be screwed.

From way back in the 40s, there is a virulent anti communist/socialist bent to Greek society. Yes the government has screwed some stuff up, but my relations in Greece want nothing more to do than work, but if it isn't tourism or shipping, it really isn't happening there. Ever look at the geography of the country? If you're going to blame the government, you'd better blame the geography too.

And when people throw around terms that they don't even really understand in order to simply slur an entire country, it really is appalling.

[Dim Bulb]

Great. You've solved that whole Greek thing

If you are aiming this at my comments, everything I said WAS fact, first off, I never called anyone lazy, or a Socialist, or a Marxist, and that fact you can plainly read in the comments I posted.


So let's take them one by one, Greek Retirement age, avg. age is UNDER 58 years old, and their pension is OVER 80% of their income, in other words a worker making 1100 gets a pension of almost 900 dollars (adjusted figures from Euro to Dollar based) and this article is from The Greek Reporter,


The average retirement age in Greece stands at just 57 years and eight months, quoting a survey conducted by the Hellenic Statistical Authority (ELSTAT). The survey used a sample from the quarterly work force report from the April-June 2012 period for people aged between 50 and 69 years, and reached some very interesting conclusions. The average age of retirement for men is 58 years, while for women it is a few months earlier. Less than one in three (28.3%) of the respondents said that obligatory retirement was the main reason for their exiting the labor market. Almost six out of 10 had secured the right to retire, while a 5.7% share of workers stated that they had exited the market due to health problems. It also appears that the age of retirement is affected by education level, due to its connection to work and the social security system. It was found that those who have only obtained an elementary education (primary school leavers) are more likely to retire later, at the average age of 59 years and three months. In contrast, the more educated a worker is, the earlier they retire, with the average age of retirement for university graduates standing at 56 years and four months. (source: ANSA) - See more at: http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013....hEWQ2Vc2.dpuf





As far as shorter work week and more vacation days, you are correct the Greeks DO work longer hours than most of the EU, the EU countries average 41.6 and the Greeks are at 42.2, which is pretty much a wash, I was comparing what they work to the middle class here which most work much more than 40 hrs per week.




The average working week for full-time employees only in the EU is 41.6 hours. Ireland’s full-time workers have an average week of 39.7 working hours. Germany’s full-time employees do work harder than the EU average, with a 42-hour working week. But Greece’s average full-time working weeks is 43.7 hours – again, the highest average in the 27 EU states.
Average usual hours worked by all in employment, and full-time workers, April to June 2011, in the EU states:
Greece – All in employment: 42.2 Full-time employment only: 43.7
Czech Republic – All in employment: 41.2 Full-time employment only: 42.3
Bulgaria – All in employment: 40.9 Full-time employment only: 41.3
Poland – All in employment: 40.6 Full-time employment only: 42.2
Slovakia – All in employment: 40.5 Full-time employment only: 41.5
Romania – All in employment: 40.5 Full-time employment only: 41.0
Cyprus – All in employment: 40 Full-time employment only: 42.1
Slovenia – All in employment:39.6 Full-time employment only: 41.8
Hungary – All in employment: 39.4 Full-time employment only: 40.6
Latvia – All in employment: 39.2 Full-time employment only: 40.8
Portugal – All in employment: 39.1 Full-time employment only: 42.3
Malta – All in employment: 38.8 Full-time employment only: 41.4
Estonia – All in employment: 38.6 Full-time employment only: 40.8
Spain – All in employment: 38.4 Full-time employment only: 41.6
Lithuania – All in employment: 38.3 Full-time employment only: 39.7
France – All in employment: 38 Full-time employment only: 41.1
Austria – All in employment: 37.8 Full-time employment only: 43.7
Italy – All in employment: 37.6 Full-time employment only: 40.5
Finland – All in employment: 37.4 Full-time employment only: 40.3
Luxembourg – All in employment: 37 Full-time employment only: 40.5
Belgium – All in employment: 36.9 Full-time employment only: 41.7
Sweden – All in employment: 36.5 Full-time employment only: 40.9
UK – All in employment: 36.3 Full-time employment only: 42.7
Germany – All in employment: 35.6 Full-time employment only: 42.0
Ireland – All in employment: 35.0 Full-time employment only: 39.7
Denmark – All in employment: 33.8 Full-time employment only: 39.1
Netherlands – All in employment: 30.5 Full-time employment only: 40.9




As to IE comment on there are many unemployed because there is no Employment Opportunities, this I do agree with, and again, I place that blame on the Gov. for not bringing jobs into that country.


I never said they were LAZY, what I said was there were a large number of the working force either Unemployed, or Employed under the table so no taxes being paid or collected.


This is from one of the most Left sided publication you can find, The Marxist. This backs up EXACTLY what I was saying about Black Market jobs/labor.




Furthermore, according to the annual report of the joint GSEE-ADEDY trade union confederations on the economy and employment levels in 2009, of the current four and a half million labour force, more than a million work without any social security or other forms of legal protection. According to the report of the Commission for Social Security, established by the Greek Ministry of Labour, this figure reaches 30% of the overall workforce, while in the rest of the EU the percentage of workers in these conditions are only between 5 and 10% of the total.
And whose fault is that? Contributions are supposed to be calculated by the bosses, who pay a part themselves and the remainder is paid by the workers out of their wages. But that would mean declaring the workers legally and paying taxes on the profits made. The bosses prefer to hire a sizeable number of workers illegally, in the “black economy”, and thus save on both taxes due to the state and contributions. If the bosses had paid all taxes due in recent years, and if they had paid what they are supposed to pay into social security funds, the situation would not be anywhere as bad as it is today. It is the Greek capitalists and the foreign investors who have profited from this situation. But who are they blaming? The Greek workers and poor, of course!
On top of all this, in Greece there is also the phenomenon of around 300,000 “false self-employed workers”. These are workers who have in reality been forced to set themselves up as self-employed. In reality they work for a boss who can freely assign the manner, the time, the place of work, and the working conditions and thus this form of working is essentially employment by a boss, but with the added advantage that he can sack them whenever he wants, as formally he is the workers’ “client”. Bosses prefer this method of employment because these workers are not treated legally as employees; they don’t have the same legal rights as the rest of the working class, such as monthly salaries, paid holidays, etc. Employers can fire them freely, even without any compensation. We must also add to the list the 200,000 “part-time” employees, most of whom work full-time but are being paid half-time.
In the smear campaign, there have been many reports concerning the supposedly “excessive” number of civil servants in Greece. According to reports of the ILO (International Labour Organization), civil servants in Greece represent 22.3% of the total workforce, while in France the percentage is 30%, in Sweden 34%, in the Netherlands 27%, in the UK 20% and finally, in Germany 14%. So we can see that Greece is actually below the average. The most important fact, however, that has to be borne in mind is that 300,000 of the public sector employees are working under temporary contracts, which means they have far lower wages and much fewer rights.






Also BW, I will total agree with you on this comment you made, it's EXACTLY how I feel about this country!


You can say they elected their government, but whoever they chose was as corrupt as the other choice. It sucks when your vote only determines the method with which you will be screwed.

So why is it that there are so many unemployed people in Sudan? Their government never engaged in the give-aways that you accuse the Greek government of doing.

"I place that blame on the Gov. for not bringing jobs into that country."

Just how exactly were you going to get Toyota to put a factory in Sparta? The roads aren't so good there.

My point is, Kansas is the perfect place to grow corn. Arizona is not. No government is going to change that.

[Dim Bulb]

Had a great grilled snapper on the Plaka

How hard is it to sell souvlaki at the Plaka?! Quit making excuses for them!

Last time I was there. There are so few sheep left that all you can get is goat any more. Personally, I think it's wrong to keep the sheep barefoot and pregnant at home.

[Eagle Road]

So why is it that there are so many unemployed people in Sudan? Their government never engaged in the give-aways that you accuse the Greek government of doing.

"I place that blame on the Gov. for not bringing jobs into that country."

Just how exactly were you going to get Toyota to put a factory in Sparta? The roads aren't so good there.

My point is, Kansas is the perfect place to grow corn. Arizona is not. No government is going to change that.

I wasn't trying to "solve" anything, just don't like being misquoted, which seems to happen a lot here.


You don't put a Toyota factory in Sparta, but when was the last time you saw a Gov. ad for even the Tourism trade there?


And you are right Dimmy, it IS appalling when people just throw stuff around, "Kansas, the perfect place to grow corn". ????


And when people throw around terms that they don't even really understand in order to simply slur an entire country, it really is appalling.


Really thought you of all people living the next state over would know better.


Kansas is the "Wheat State" if you want to find perfect corn state you should of picked Iowa or Nebraska.

[Dim Bulb]

I use "corn" in the same manner as the British Empire

I wasn't trying to "solve" anything, just don't like being misquoted, which seems to happen a lot here.


You don't put a Toyota factory in Sparta, but when was the last time you saw a Gov. ad for even the Tourism trade there?


And you are right Dimmy, it IS appalling when people just throw stuff around, "Kansas, the perfect place to grow corn". ????


And when people throw around terms that they don't even really understand in order to simply slur an entire country, it really is appalling.


Really thought you of all people living the next state over would know better.


Kansas is the "Wheat State" if you want to find perfect corn state you should of picked Iowa or Nebraska.

As in the Corn Laws. I just can't wait for football to start. Sigh.

[Eagle Road]

As in the Corn Laws. I just can't wait for football to start. Sigh.

Agreed.

[McCarthy12]

Rewriting the Iliad?

[Eagle Road]

Rewriting the Iliad?

Close, Odyssey

[Riccardo]

Had the best roasted veal ever there

And awesome octopus.

Is it true that people can retire on full government pension at age 50?