FWIW Elway looked like a bust after his first four seasons...

[slag]

Missing open receivers

holding on to the ball for too long

yes

Uh huh ... I can tell you were really concerned

https://igglephans.com/iggboard/forum/igglephans-main-board/143531-wentz-mvp

[BigSlizz]

I think I'm just furious right now that he couldn't get it done the past two weeks. And it's probably not 100% fair that I place the blame on him, but I've made my choice.

The defense has overcome some serious struggles and has looked fantastic.

The receivers have been disappointing, but you still have an elite TE and a rookie RB who looks like the real deal. Speaking of that rookie RB, he missed him BAD yesterday on a play that would have given them a nice early lead.

Not much has kept this 5-6 team from being 8-3, and I think having a franchise QB should bridge that gap.

On the plus side, it feels like 2016, so next season could be another 2017. Back then they needed a backup QB and WRs, so I guess it can happen again.

I'm not clinging to shit.

I think he looked fucked in the head yesterday ... and it's concerning right now but I'm not using every opportunity to hate nor am I hoping he fails when healthy so we can move on.

I think the obvious reason is coaching and personnel ... but maybe he's sleeping in and not working hard after getting paid ... hope that isn't it but who knows?

I never found you to be some WIP knee jerk Vinny from Fishtown ... so I'm wondering if you have some inside info or just don't like him.

EDITED TO ADD: Or, of course, just trolling.

[slag]

He missed Sanders badly but ... not that it excuses his bad throw ... it looked like two guys probably would have stopped Sanders short unless he broke two tackles.

More significantly to the general discussion ... notwithstanding your suggestion that having Ertz and Sanders makes up for no Howard or ANY NFL starter at WR or any NFL starter on the right side of the OL ... the defense you now tout was ass until they got their starters at corner and nickle back.

[Mr. Triple Dip]

What problems are those? Were you recognizing this when he was an MVP candidate in 2017?

Last 2 years he hasn't used his legs nearly as effectively as 2017. I don't mean just taking off and running...a simple move or two in the pocket to buy an extra second or give himself a better throwing window isn't close to what we saw before. Chalked it up to injury last year but what is the reason this year? Just seems like 3 or 5 step drop and he plants his feet in the ground, even making poor throws cause of the statue footwork. The 4th down pass to JJAW is a good example, he just stood there flat footed and threw an off target pass to a guy 8 yards away.

I am baffled how a guy who looked like he had a 6th sense in the pocket can look the way he has lately.

[91EaglesD]

His stats were awful, his team lost a lot, but once they got him some help...well...

Did his backup win a super bowl and thus creating a shadow he couldn’t out run

[art vandelay]

Uh huh ... I can tell you were really concerned

https://igglephans.com/iggboard/foru...3531-wentz-mvp

Ha ok? What a shocker that Wentz’s flaws weren’t as apparent when he was playing the best football of any QB in the NFL. He has still shown tendencies in the 24 games since that may not go away even if he has help. And there was a torn ACL in there that may have affected him.

I’m not sure why that notion upsets you so much. I also said he was the 3rd best QB picked in the first over the last 5 years, and I have a thread on the front page about how they lost because Brooks and Johnson were out.

edit: I now see that I misread your questions on the first thread a little. Wentz wasn’t doing things like overthrowing a wide open Sanders for a TD in 2017, so of course I wasn’t recognizing that he was missing open guys. He did take too many sacks in the first 3 games before an amazing 10 game stretch.

[slag]

Ha ok? What a shocker that Wentz’s flaws weren’t as apparent when he was playing the best football of any QB in the NFL. He has still shown tendencies in the 24 games since that may not go away even if he has help. And there was a torn ACL in there that may have affected him.

I’m not sure why that notion upsets you so much. I also said he was the 3rd best QB picked in the first over the last 5 years, and I have a thread on the front page about how they lost because Brooks and Johnson were out.

I think he locks on the primary too much myself lately.

Missing open guys was here and there but yesterday it was alarming ... and he's admitted to holding the ball and missing throws, so he clearly knows what he's doing.

I may have misunderstood you but I thought you said you recognized this from the beginning ... which I don't recall myself thinking or anyone else that I remember.

Back in the day I thought all he was interested in was shooting ducks and practicing football, but I'm now concerned he's not working as hard as he was back then.

And because I've always thought Groh was a bad choice for OC and have no clue about the QB coach (who, based on these issues doesn't appear to fixing dick), I'm predisposed I suppose to think he isn't getting good coaching.

[BigSlizz]

I think there's something to your thought that he's not putting in the work the way he used to. He looks sloppy and unprepared. That's all on him, and if that's the case he can (to resurrect a legendary quote) "bite my crank."

He missed Sanders badly but ... not that it excuses his bad throw ... it looked like two guys probably would have stopped Sanders short unless he broke two tackles.

More significantly to the general discussion ... notwithstanding your suggestion that having Ertz and Sanders makes up for no Howard or ANY NFL starter at WR or any NFL starter on the right side of the OL ... the defense you now tout was ass until they got their starters at corner and nickle back.

[art vandelay]

I think he locks on the primary too much myself lately.

Missing open guys was here and there but yesterday it was alarming ... and he's admitted to holding the ball and missing throws, so he clearly knows what he's doing.

I may have misunderstood you but I thought you said you recognized this from the beginning ... which I don't recall myself thinking or anyone else that I remember.

Back in the day I thought all he was interested in was shooting ducks and practicing football, but I'm now concerned he's not working as hard as he was back then.

And because I've always thought Groh was a bad choice fo OC and have no clue about the QB coach (who, based on these issue doesn't appear to fixing dick), I'm predisposed I suppose to think he isn't getting good coaching.

I misunderstood your question about whether or not I recognized this from the beginning.

I’m not really sure why you asked that question though. It had nothing to do with the missed targets and bad sacks/fumbles we’ve seen this season.

IMO last season he wasn’t fully recovered from his ACL injury. This season the injury problems have just compounded themselves. Wentz has understandably lost confidence in his receivers. When the best RG and RT in football are also out, the loss of confidence will be a huge problem.

I still say that the above problems aren’t an excuse for plays like the Sanders overthrow. But of course the guy isn’t a bust or anything.

[The Duck]

Last 2 years he hasn't used his legs nearly as effectively as 2017. I don't mean just taking off and running...a simple move or two in the pocket to buy an extra second or give himself a better throwing window isn't close to what we saw before. Chalked it up to injury last year but what is the reason this year? Just seems like 3 or 5 step drop and he plants his feet in the ground, even making poor throws cause of the statue footwork. The 4th down pass to JJAW is a good example, he just stood there flat footed and threw an off target pass to a guy 8 yards away.

I am baffled how a guy who looked like he had a 6th sense in the pocket can look the way he has lately.

His mechanics have regressed badly, reverting all the way back to the most concerning stuff you saw on his college tape. Stuff I was sure NFL coaching could correct relatively easily, given the level of coaching he was getting in college, and his rep for being a great student. To see those horrible habits coming back like this is alarming as hell.

There's a lot going on with Wentz. The injuries, the lack of any supporting cast, the loss of the right side of his line... but watching him standing flat-footed in the pocket play after player, game after game... that's all on this coaching staff. The drop-off from Reich/DeFilippo to Groh/Press Taylor has been massive. Doug's hire-from-within policy has been a fucking disaster.

Either that, or Wentz has become uncoachable. Which I seriously doubt.

[Lar6767]

There have been stories written about him being uncoachable.

[Mr. Triple Dip]

Either that, or Wentz has become uncoachable. Which I seriously doubt.

I would be surprised. Goes back to a now not so funny mic'd up conversation between John Lynch and Doug Pederson in 2017 when both were singing Wentz praises and Doug jokes "as long as we don't screw him up right" followed by chuckles.

[Raptor]

His mechanics have regressed badly, reverting all the way back to the most concerning stuff you saw on his college tape. Stuff I was sure NFL coaching could correct relatively easily, given the level of coaching he was getting in college, and his rep for being a great student. To see those horrible habits coming back like this is alarming as hell.

There's a lot going on with Wentz. The injuries, the lack of any supporting cast, the loss of the right side of his line... but watching him standing flat-footed in the pocket play after player, game after game... that's all on this coaching staff. The drop-off from Reich/DeFilippo to Groh/Press Taylor has been massive. Doug's hire-from-within policy has been a fucking disaster.

Either that, or Wentz has become uncoachable. Which I seriously doubt.

Duck, I agree.

i think the guy spends way too much time in his head and the game is moving too fast for him at moments. I have never understood why It appears Pedey puts a different offense in for Wentz.....might be time to simplify the O run a few more RPOs.

i know many people have observed and commented on some tendencies of Wentz’s, mechanical or otherwise....but we need to jettison Groh and the QB coach, the WR guy can go as well.

What about Duce taking over OC duties??

[The Duck]

There have been stories written about him being uncoachable.

Lots of stories are written when things go bad. All I know is, he responded to Reich/DeFilippo's coaching just fine, and he's been a mess under Groh and Taylor.

Wentz isn't going anywhere for a long time, so find coaches who can reach him.

[The Duck]

What about Duce taking over OC duties??

Please, no more promoting from within. When Doug promoted Groh, he badly weakened two coaching slots (OC & WR). Duce is doing a nice job with the RB's, leave him be.

I want guys from the outside bringing in new ideas, styles, and methods.