Bryce Harper

[nerd]

I have zero faith this front office can identify the right people through free agency. Keuchel is most likely another Arrieta. Kimbrel isn't worth the money he wants. Nerd is right. They failed with those high picks they had in the draft. Teams that usually win the World Series have had more success in the draft. They wasted that opportunity. Yes, they're still young but history shows us their track record sucks.

yup. I mean, they hit on burrell (who was a good player for a #1 overall pick), Utley, Hamels, Myers (sort of), Rollins (I think top of the second round) and Howard (who developed as a 9th round pick I think).

As of right it's Hoskins and Nola as draft picks that have turned into something. Obviously Kingery could pan out and other guys could as well, but there is no one in the minors that I'm just waiting for them to come up because they just look like a ballplayer. That was Hoskins. Now it's "I have no idea".

They need to get that fixed and figured out at this point.

[JuTMSY4]

This is a very complicated position to take.

1) You simply don't draft yourself out of the basement in 3 years. It can't be done. Every player on the roster who was drafted by the phillies, was drafted by the prior regime. Whether you consider that good or bad, is another question. The phillies have drafted poorly, especially in the high rounds, for well over a decade. To the extent you need something "fixed," you can't look at the MLB talent and say "this is why" because it's changed significantly in the last 3 years.

2) You can't apply it to development either. You know that.

3) This is also failing to appreciate the Phillies significant shift in analytics (which basically everyone but the worst teams do now). They've had to build that department from the ground up since 2015

4) It's also failing to appreciate their international scouting. For now, smart teams are hustling abroad for extra players to compliment the system. The phillies have done well with that including Hernandez and Franco.

I don't think we can really take any position on the current FO. The jury's out. This isn't football - players take years to develop. Guys like Howard and Utley didn't reach the majors until their mid-20s and even Cole Hamels, drafted from HS was drafted in 2002 and didn't throw an MLB pitch for 4 years.

Side note: did you guys know Hamels had a 1510 on the SATs? https://www.mlb.com/news/before-they...ue/c-188371788

[nerd]

This is a very complicated position to take.

1) You simply don't draft yourself out of the basement in 3 years. It can't be done. Every player on the roster who was drafted by the phillies, was drafted by the prior regime. Whether you consider that good or bad, is another question. The phillies have drafted poorly, especially in the high rounds, for well over a decade. To the extent you need something "fixed," you can't look at the MLB talent and say "this is why" because it's changed significantly in the last 3 years.

2) You can't apply it to development either. You know that.

3) This is also failing to appreciate the Phillies significant shift in analytics (which basically everyone but the worst teams do now). They've had to build that department from the ground up since 2015

4) It's also failing to appreciate their international scouting. For now, smart teams are hustling abroad for extra players to compliment the system. The phillies have done well with that including Hernandez and Franco.

I don't think we can really take any position on the current FO. The jury's out. This isn't football - players take years to develop. Guys like Howard and Utley didn't reach the majors until their mid-20s and even Cole Hamels, drafted from HS was drafted in 2002 and didn't throw an MLB pitch for 4 years.

Side note: did you guys know Hamels had a 1510 on the SATs? https://www.mlb.com/news/before-they...ue/c-188371788

Utley and Howard didn't come up because of poor evaluation. Phillies didn't think Utley could be more than a utility guy and Howard was blocked by Thome (and Wade wanted to trade him for Kip Wells or whatever that idiot pitcher was from the Pirates).

Yes, Klentak only got here in 2015 and his first draft wasn't till 2016 but the drafts he has been here for haven't been all that great so far. In fact, they have been underwhelming at best.

Pointing to Hernandez and Franco as products of the international scouting isn't really that great. Franco and Hernandez are okay players but replaceable.

[Snakebitten]

Let's make it easy. What has Klentak done right? I can tell you the many things he did wrong but I'm struggling to find many positives.

[JuTMSY4]

Is that true?

Let's make it easy. What has Klentak done right? I can tell you the many things he did wrong but I'm struggling to find many positives.

What has he done wrong? Alleged overpays? There's just a very small body of work for the regular fan base to even take a position on. That's sorta the problem.

It's like celebrating Pat Gillick even though most, if not all, of the success has less to do with him and more with Ed Wade. Even after that, Gillick's FO did a horrible job drafting and RAJ spun it into gold even if they never won the World Series again.

But Gillick won the World Series, so there's that.

[nerd]

Dave Roberts of the dodgers said that this meeting with Bryce and Boras was their first meeting with him.

So, the one in December didn't happen?

LOL...this smells like Boras trying to drive up the Phillies price and the Phillies aren't moving.

[06hawkalum]

Dave Roberts of the dodgers said that this meeting with Bryce and Boras was their first meeting with him.

So, the one in December didn't happen?

LOL...this smells like Boras trying to drive up the Phillies price and the Phillies aren't moving.

Sure sounds like it, Roberts also said that he doesn't think the Dodgers will ultimately sign Harper because, duh, they aren't offering him a long-term deal.

[Snakebitten]

Santana, Arrieta, Hunter and Neshek were mistakes (McCutchen was overpaid so they've showed they haven't learned their lesson). Bringing players in that caused players to play out of position was moronic. Bringing in Jose Bautista, Justin Bour and Asdrubal Cabrera was useless. Signing Kingery to the most guaranteed money ever for an amateur drafted player who has never played in the major leagues was unnecessary. Michael Saunders, Clay Buchholz, Peter Bourjos, Andrew Bailey, Daniel Nava, Tyler Goeddel, and Jeremy Hellickson gave them nothing. The jury's still out on Coach Coconuts but that collapse last year is very concerning.

I know Segura and Realmuto is encouraging but right now Klentak is failing.

[JuTMSY4]

that's a pretty short range look

Santana, Arrieta, Hunter and Neshek were mistakes (McCutchen was overpaid so they've showed they haven't learned their lesson).

Only Arrieta is potential on the books after this season. Are you worried about Middleton's checkbook?

Bringing players in that caused players to play out of position was moronic. Bringing in Jose Bautista, Justin Bour and Asdrubal Cabrera was useless.

It's irrelevant either way. They were low risk gambles. That none of them worked is a fair criticism, but it doesn't really show they missed out on anything. They traded mostly money and some organizational depth which was clogging the AAA roster.

Signing Kingery to the most guaranteed money ever for an amateur drafted player who has never played in the major leagues was unnecessary.

I guess? Worst case, what are they losing?

Michael Saunders, Clay Buchholz, Peter Bourjos, Andrew Bailey, Daniel Nava, Tyler Goeddel, and Jeremy Hellickson gave them nothing.

Versus?

The jury's still out on Coach Coconuts but that collapse last year is very concerning.

The collapse worries me less than some severe mismanagement in some games. If Kapler is playing it by the book, then what do we need Kap for?

I know Segura and Realmuto is encouraging but right now Klentak is failing.

Segura is a great trade if you don't believe in crawford (drafted by RAJ in 2011). I'm not a huge Realmuto fan because I like Sanchez (duh), but he had some serious injury and conditioning concerns - the rumor being that few teams considered him a top prospect anymore.

However Realmuto is a stud and probably the best catcher in the game - the MLB roster improved a lot.

They also have kept their top 4 position prospects intact, bohm, leading the pack, looks like an elite bat who will probably stay at 3rd - a position and player the org hasn't had since Rolen.

I dunno, I'm not trying to carry water, I just don't see how anyone can say anything definitive. The roster was a mess when they showed up and it's incrementally improved. 75% of the transactions were low-risk moves. Most didn't work because that's the nature of those transactions.

Is that enough? (I don't know). Should they be contenders this year (probably, yes). Is not singing Harper a failure (yes).

[Snakebitten]

Here's the thing that concerns me with Middleton's checkbook. In a short period of time, they have built a reputation for overspending for average players. That doesn't bode well for future contracts. Boras knows who he's dealing with so he wants to take advantage of this weakness. I don't blame him. I blame this organization. While it's not my money, they will eventually have to considered the luxury cap. They aren't the Yankees. They can't overspend every time. Trout won't take a hometown discount. Realmuto and Segura will not be cheap in the near future. They still need starting pitching. These salaries will add up quickly.

This is still a front office that thought Santana made sense. I said it was a bad move and got an earful. They proved me right within one season which is alarming. They aren't going to get to move every bad contract without giving up something.

My gut tells me this front office stinks. I prefer to put it out there and, if I'm wrong, I'll take it. No big deal. I won't ever root for this team to fail...unless they're in the 'tank zone'.

I know when an owner states spending 'stupid money', it doesn't bother most. I see it as a horrible business practice. That's just me.

In regards to dumpster diving to fill out a roster, this blind squirrel hasn't found one nut. That's also concerning.

I'll let this play out but I just don't see this group building a winner.

[JuTMSY4]

I mean, if you're asking me to argue with your guy feeling, I'm not really sure what to offer.

The problems I see are a somewhat aimless FO who doesn't appear to have a strategy in place. They want to build a long-term successful franchise that competes year-to-year with a shot to win the world series and predicated on using financial might only to cover mistakes.

I see an owner who wants winners all the time, but will settle for elite bursts (which maybe we're entering into).

Those strategies conflict.

As far as starters, that's such a hard problem to fix without either spending gobs of prospects to acquire one or signing a flawed one on a pricey FA contract. Neither are enticing. So you need to grow them. They've turned Nola into a stud. Sanchez is 2-3 years away if you were looking at him. They've got maybe 7 SPs who project as 3-5 type starters. That's a cachet, but certainly none look elite right now. Pivetta might round out into a solid front of the rotation guy and Eflin really is a poor man's keuchel.

It's also worth noting that the roster-value of an elite SP has minimized. Unless and until they change any bullpen rules, I expect teams to be more focused on building up the back 4-5 innings than the front.

[Snakebitten]

No argument here. I think we both agree this front office is flawed. I just think think they're a dumpster fire. You're more optimistic.

[SOS Crunchy]

Unless you're simply a miserable person, I don't see the point in being pessimistic at this stage in the game.

The average players the Phillies are overpaying have potential to be better than average and were still signed to relatively low-risk/short contracts.

I also don't blame the FO for the Boras/Harper camp wanting to prolong conversations until they get the highest number possible when Middleton made it known that the Phillies have 'stupid' money to spend.

Edited to add: if you had told me the Phillies would be in this position 2 years ago, I would be pretty happy.

[Anthony]

He said it but it's not as bad as the media makes it out to be. Here's his quote:


[“We’re going into this expecting to spend money,’’ Middleton told USA TODAY Sports. “And maybe even be a little bit stupid about it.’’

Middleton laughed, then said without smiling: “We just prefer not to be completely stupid."]

Unless you're simply a miserable person, I don't see the point in being pessimistic at this stage in the game.

The average players the Phillies are overpaying have potential to be better than average and were still signed to relatively low-risk/short contracts.

I also don't blame the FO for the Boras/Harper camp wanting to prolong conversations until they get the highest number possible when Middleton made it known that the Phillies have 'stupid' money to spend.

Edited to add: if you had told me the Phillies would be in this position 2 years ago, I would be pretty happy.

[06hawkalum]

He said it but it's not as bad as the media makes it out to be. Here's his quote:


[“We’re going into this expecting to spend money,’’ Middleton told USA TODAY Sports. “And maybe even be a little bit stupid about it.’’

Middleton laughed, then said without smiling: “We just prefer not to be completely stupid."]

Yup, the quote has been completely taken out of context by the media and WIP types (both hosts and callers).