As an outsider looking in....

[Birdwatcher]

you should add to that...

THIS ^^^

is what I was alluding to when I asked Terp what was different, this IMHO is what is different, at the turn of last century this country had as many immigrants coming here as anywhere in history, I don't care what gun difference technology was then vs now, the difference is those people coming here WANTED to be here, they wanted to be in America and all that was possible with that.

Now you have a lot of people in this country, whether they were born here or not that simply don't want to be Americans, they want to fly their countries (or ancestors country) flag, burn ours, make their own laws, have their own courts.

Basically what you are starting to have is instead of a melting pot of cultures, you have pockets of cultures that really don't want to be Americans.

To me, that is what has changed.

What has caused these people to turn against this country? Perhaps the advent of the internet and the 'class' war that began when we had the audacity to elect a black president. The angry white movement, headed by faux news along with Limbaugh and his ilk, has played a part in making this country seem less welcoming to immigrants, especially Muslims. Trump is the end result of fanning the flames of fear and ignorance. There will always be radical a-holes in every society, our own right wing militias who do not recognize the federal government and are willing to point their guns at federal agents are no better than Islamic terrorists. But they are a small percentage of the population, the hundreds of decent people who lined up to give blood after the shooting are more representative of who we really are.

To me the bottom line is that hatred is the cause of all of this, whether justified or not, that emotion is destructive and we are all watching what happens when it is not addressed or denounced by enough of us. We will never be the 'Christian' nation the right says we are as long as we discriminate and hate people who do not believe what we do, and we are no where close to that point. This world is no more dangerous than it was a hundred years ago, in fact it is safer, but with the population nearing 8B people and instantaneous news on the web, it just looks worse. Irrational fear and hatred will only perpetuate this cycle, and until people are willing to stop those feelings from dictating their actions, it will continue. These assholes who go out and create carnage are fueled by the same feelings and look at the result.

[1960]

The issue is that in America we need to feel in control so we look for reasons so we think we can make it stop. Sorry, not that easy. This is a cult of death who are not logical and do not care if they die. Ban air travel, guns, box cutters, fertilizer, knives...if they want to kill they will. if blaming other Americans for what this cult does makes you sleep at night more power to you. It's not going to make it stop though.

[T.D-Bag]

THIS ^^^

is what I was alluding to when I asked Terp what was different, this IMHO is what is different, at the turn of last century this country had as many immigrants coming here as anywhere in history, I don't care what gun difference technology was then vs now, the difference is those people coming here WANTED to be here, they wanted to be in America and all that was possible with that.

Now you have a lot of people in this country, whether they were born here or not that simply don't want to be Americans, they want to fly their countries (or ancestors country) flag, burn ours, make their own laws, have their own courts.

Basically what you are starting to have is instead of a melting pot of cultures, you have pockets of cultures that really don't want to be Americans.

To me, that is what has changed.

And we also didn't bomb the shit out of their country and help create terrorists.

[Melchior]

The issue is that in America we need to feel in control so we look for reasons so we think we can make it stop. Sorry, not that easy. This is a cult of death who are not logical and do not care if they die. Ban air travel, guns, box cutters, fertilizer, knives...if they want to kill they will. if blaming other Americans for what this cult does makes you sleep at night more power to you. It's not going to make it stop though.

I'm not blaming anyone. You're contradicting yourself. "We're never going to get rid of them, so we might as well not try to mitigate the damage they can do."

Brown people aren't the only ones that kill people, though.

[TerpEagle]

I wouldn't lose any sleep if every AR-15 on the planet magically disappeared overnight. However, the unfortunate reality is that, even if that happened, none of these shootings would have been prevented. As someone else mentioned, a skilled shooter with just about any semi-automatic weapon could wreak this havoc in a crowded space.

I'm down with any reasonable gun regulations, but I think we are losing the forest for the trees here. The issue is ISIS. They want to kill us and they are doing it. We need to stop them. That should be the focus, IMO, not the ancillary issues related to them.

You're conflating issues. ISIS, Islamist extremism, terrorism, etc. are all a significant problem, but mass shootings don't exist because of those problems.

The common thread between "ISIS" nut jobs shooting up innocent people and "American" nut jobs shooting up innocent people is the method and the ease with which the guns are obtained.

The idea of getting weapons out of the hands of people that shouldn't have them is hard enough to accomplish.

Attempting to do it with fingers stuck in our ears singing "Lalalalalalalalala guns don't kill people" makes it impossible.

[McCarthy12]

I disagree. Gun violence is an issue in this country and something has to be done to stem it, no doubt. But the issue in Orlando is ISIS. There is one group of people whose stated purpose is to kill us. They don't care what our gun laws are and they will be able to obtain weapons regardless. We ignore them at our own peril, IMO.

[Eagle Road]

And we also didn't bomb the shit out of their country and help create terrorists.

We didn't bomb the shit out of Germany, we didn't drop a nuclear weapon and decimate half a country???

How many Germans and Japanese descendants do you see shooting up Gay clubs?

[1960]

I'm not blaming anyone. You're contradicting yourself. "We're never going to get rid of them, so we might as well not try to mitigate the damage they can do."

Brown people aren't the only ones that kill people, though.

They are two separate issues. If you want to ban guns fine but don't think it will have any effect on what these people do.

[McCarthy12]

I'm not conflating the issues. I'm doing the opposite. This mass shooting did occur because of that problem (ISIS). So did Paris. So did San Bernadino. Every mass shooting, regardless of motive, is a terrorist attack, but we have a very specific problem with ISIS and Islamic terrorism.

We conflate the issues when we lump Orlando in with every day gun violence and act like solving the gun violence problem will somehow stop this terrorist organization from trying to kill everyone they don't like. Gun violence in America is a serious issue. ISIS is a serious, and separate, issue. Related but separate.

[Eagle Road]

[QUOTE=McCarthy12;1857948]I'm not conflating the issues. I'm doing the opposite. This mass shooting did occur because of that problem (ISIS). So did Paris. So did San Bernadino. Every mass shooting, regardless of motive, is a terrorist attack, but we have a very specific problem with ISIS and Islamic terrorism.


Even though it wasn't a "gun" don't forget Boston, or the shooting at the Army base in Texas.

[TerpEagle]

The issue is that in America we need to feel in control so we look for reasons so we think we can make it stop. Sorry, not that easy. This is a cult of death who are not logical and do not care if they die. Ban air travel, guns, box cutters, fertilizer, knives...if they want to kill they will. if blaming other Americans for what this cult does makes you sleep at night more power to you. It's not going to make it stop though.

Was Dylann Roof part of the cult of death? Was Adam Lanza? Was James Eagan Holmes? Was Seung-Hui Cho? Were Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold?

There are 3 major aspects to the shooting in Orlando.

1) An natural born American citizen and nut-job that used religious extremism to justify his actions.
2) Targeting of a community that is treated as less than equal by a large portion of this country.
3) Someone who had been investigated by the FBI, has mental health issues, has a history of domestic violence, has a history of unstable activity, and has a history of spouting hateful rhetoric towards specific groups of people having easy access to firearms.

Why should we only be talking about the 1st item on that list? These are all serious issues and simply blaming this massacre on the evil other doesn't come close to helping to solve them.

And, fyi, more than the actual massacre, ISIS wants us to react this way towards Muslims and Islam. It's much easier to recruit when there is a clear enemy that sees you as the "other" rather than a society of inclusion.

[TerpEagle]

I'm not conflating the issues. I'm doing the opposite. This mass shooting did occur because of that problem (ISIS). So did Paris. So did San Bernadino. Every mass shooting, regardless of motive, is a terrorist attack, but we have a very specific problem with ISIS and Islamic terrorism.

We conflate the issues when we lump Orlando in with every day gun violence and act like solving the gun violence problem will somehow stop this terrorist organization from trying to kill everyone they don't like. Gun violence in America is a serious issue. ISIS is a serious, and separate, issue. Related but separate.

You said THE issue in Orlando was ISIS. You made it the singular issue with that statement.

[Sect 236]

But the issue in Orlando is ISIS.

The Director of the FBI just went over what he said in his 911 call. He said he was doing it for the leader of ISIS, who he pledged loyalty too. He also claimed solidarity to the Boston bombers and an Al Nusra bomber. Al Nusra and ISIS are in conflict. The Boston brothers and the Al Nusra bomber were not inspired by ISIS at all.

It is possible that this guy was just a homophobic psychopath who snapped. His "allegiances" are all over the place.

[Eagle Road]

What has caused these people to turn against this country? Perhaps the advent of the internet and the 'class' war that began when we had the audacity to elect a black president. The angry white movement, headed by faux news along with Limbaugh and his ilk, has played a part in making this country seem less welcoming to immigrants, especially Muslims. Trump is the end result of fanning the flames of fear and ignorance. There will always be radical a-holes in every society, our own right wing militias who do not recognize the federal government and are willing to point their guns at federal agents are no better than Islamic terrorists. But they are a small percentage of the population, the hundreds of decent people who lined up to give blood after the shooting are more representative of who we really are.

To me the bottom line is that hatred is the cause of all of this, whether justified or not, that emotion is destructive and we are all watching what happens when it is not addressed or denounced by enough of us. We will never be the 'Christian' nation the right says we are as long as we discriminate and hate people who do not believe what we do, and we are no where close to that point. This world is no more dangerous than it was a hundred years ago, in fact it is safer, but with the population nearing 8B people and instantaneous news on the web, it just looks worse. Irrational fear and hatred will only perpetuate this cycle, and until people are willing to stop those feelings from dictating their actions, it will continue. These assholes who go out and create carnage are fueled by the same feelings and look at the result.

BW, to me, a lot of this has to do with people/society in general not really being happy, choose a side if you want, but this economy sucks, and has for years, most people have NO savings, most people are underpaid or under employed, half of this population is on Gov. assistance of some kind, so much middle class wealth down the tubes.

I just don't think a large percentage of people can see a light at the end of the tunnel any more, we as a country are not the happy place we used to be.

[McCarthy12]

Yes, I did. And it is. By trying to lump ISIS in with all of the other mass shooters and act like we'll somehow eradicate them if we tighten up gun laws, you conflate the issues.