Congratulations NRA

[Irish George]

Don't look outside the U.S. on mass shootings

No country does mass shooting like we do.

[McCarthy12]

I think I addressed why but the distinction is that if I want to kill myself and don't have a gun it's still pretty easy. If I want to kill a bunch of people and don't have a gun it's much more difficult. So if we are addressing gun violence it makes sense to me to focus on violence perpetrated on others where the access to and possession of firearms is the most important factor.

[McCarthy12]

The process to get a lincense and handgun permit in NJ took over a week. A bought a shotgun in PA and it took about 5 minutes.

[Eagle In Ohio]

Would it also be impolite to point out

that the 3 states with the strictest gun laws in the US (Illinois, NJ, and CA) also have the worst gun violence in the US?

GUN CONTROL DOESN'T WORK!!!!

That it would be very easy to drive one state over and purchase the guns from a state where the gun control laws are a lot more relaxed ? the people who carried out these attacks purchased the guns legally, so the "criminals and terrorists don't follow the law" argument that always used doesn't work. right up until the moment they carried out their attack, these people fell into the "law abiding citizen" category.

[Riccardo]

shotguns and handguns are different

Once you have a firearms ID card in NJ you can get a shotgun, rifle, "assault" weapon, or any other long gun in about an hour.

[TerpEagle]

Sure in the US guns are the most used method of suicide (men, not women however), but lack of access does not mean the numbers will go down. Countries like Finland and Denmark have much less access to guns and higher suicide rates. And even looking at the US, with more access to guns, use of them in suicides is declining.

http://ijmhs.biomedcentral.com/artic...1752-4458-8-22

According to that data, the suicide rate caused by firearms in the United States actually maintained or rose over that period of time. The percentage of suicides by firearms decreased, but the overall increase in suicides negated that fact. So, pretty much, the same percentage of people used a gun to kill themselves over that period of time, but mote people in general added to the overall rate using other methods. Firearms are still the leading cause in the United States, unlike any of the other (2) countries examined.



And I'm not saying that firearms are the reason people choose to commit suicide, but they make it much easier as it's clearly the method of choice for most people in this country.

[Loki]

That's been around for ages.

Gun manufacturers don't want it due to the cost.

[Riccardo]

That wasn't the point

The point was there are countries with higher rates of suicide and less access to guns. Yes it is obvious that men in the US use guns as the primary means of suicide but it does not follow that lack of access to guns would lower their suicide rate.

[TerpEagle]

The point was there are countries with higher rates of suicide and less access to guns. Yes it is obvious that men in the US use guns as the primary means of suicide but it does not follow that lack of access to guns would lower their suicide rate.

Guns are the most effective method of suicide in terms of lethality. By that metric alone, there would be fewer suicide deaths if people seeking to end their lives had less access to firearms. So yes, it would lower the suicide rate.

[TerpEagle]

I think I addressed why but the distinction is that if I want to kill myself and don't have a gun it's still pretty easy. If I want to kill a bunch of people and don't have a gun it's much more difficult. So if we are addressing gun violence it makes sense to me to focus on violence perpetrated on others where the access to and possession of firearms is the most important factor.

But guns aren't only used in homicides. Here's a flawed article from the WaPo that discusses the decrease in gun violence since 1991 (although since 1998 it's pretty much remained stagnant).

Firearm deaths via suicide nearly double those via homicide. And they've remained pretty constant since that 1991 mark. To ignore it is to ignore a significant part of the problem.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...tes-heres-why/

[Riccardo]

supposition

You're assuming if someone attempts with another method and fails they won't try again

[TerpEagle]

You're assuming if someone attempts with another method and fails they won't try again

I'm going off numbers. Firearms are 85% lethal in suicides. Overall lethality including firearms is 8.7%. If you remove firearm attempts, suicide attempts are 4.1% lethal.

So to reach the same lethality of firearm suicide attempts, the average person would have to attempt suicide 21 times.

[McCarthy12]

I think you missed my original point on the thought process behind suicide and why I think the means aren't super relevant. Regardless I really don't care if it's included or not. Zero kelvins of caring ©. Gun violence is a problem. No doubt.

[Riccardo]

Just look at Australia

Suicide rate via gun declines, suicide rate via hanging increases - overall suicide rate has increased.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12882416

[TerpEagle]

Suicide rate via gun declines, suicide rate via hanging increases - overall suicide rate has increased.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12882416

I like Australia. Let's talk about Australia.

Moving forward a few years after the major shift in Australian gun laws including the gun-buyback that occurred from 1996-1997 (primarily after the majority of your data).

https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2010/...-1988-and-2007

From 1998 - 2007, overall suicide rates dropped in Australia. And while hanging rates increased, they were actually higher in Australia than shooting rates from 1988-1997 and the most common form of suicide unlike the United States. Their 57% increase in the span of 1998-2007 still did not negate the overall drop. Other methods either dropped or showed negligible change.

So, including data that coincides with the major change in gun laws in Australia, a reduction in the second most common form of suicide, firearms, resulted in an overall drop in suicide.

Now, going back to the United States let's look at the numbers.

In 2012:
Total Suicides: 41149
Firearm Suicides: 21175
Hanging Suicides: 10062
Other Suicides: 9912

If, like Australia, firearm suicides are reduced by 54% they end up at 9792. Hanging suicides would increase to 15844. And let's assume the rest remain constant.

The overall number of suicides would be 35548 - a decrease of ~14%.

That's using the changes in male suicide rate which is the more conservative as they commit more suicides. If we include females and apply the overall population numbers in Australia the reduction is the same.

So again, it would decrease.